Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent
Is he able but not willing?
Then he is malevolent
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him god?
- Epicurus
This goes very well with the argument of "God has a plan for your life", then I guess not everyone's in god's plan, like all the women, children and men who have died in natural disasters. That was god's plan you could say so we're not overpopulated. If that's so, then why are you telling me that god has a plan for my life but not for theirs? Was the plan that they would be born, live for a couple years and then die without having accomplished even graduating from elementary school? What about the dreams and goals of these people? I'd be surprised if none of them had any goals or something to look forward to, like their kid's graduation date or their wedding. I guess god is partial when it comes to people then, because he allows some people to live over 100 years and some others' lives are cut short by god's malevolent plan. If this god exists of course, which you're arguing he/she/it does.
But god's ways are above ours and his (I thought god was genderless...?) understanding is greater than ours. If that's so, then how do you know about it? -Well I don't know of course!! If you don't know, who does? -God of course, if he knows and he doesn't want to share that vital information with us, how is he/she/it worthy of worship, singing, dancing or even mention? He/she/it's just an egotistical pompous narcisist that claims to know everything and who also is so selfish and cares so little for our lives that he/she/it is not willing to share such important, and most importantly vital information.
How do I know if it's god's plan that my children will be killed in a car accident? God knows if this is going to happen or not of course, but if that's the case, does he even car about how I will feel when I find out they were killed in a car accident and he didn't do anything to prevent it? And on top of that, denied me that important information to save my children's lives and on top of all that, he expects me to surrender on my knees, ask FORGIVENESS for my sins and worship that narcisist god??!! Are you serious??!!! Is that your sound argument of god's got a plan for me?
Look at all the evil that's happening in Mexico at the expense of the health and wellbeing of millions of american drug users and abusers, and god's just sitting on his cloud letting it all happen because "it's his divine plan". What's divine about that? What's so divine about the tsunamis, earthquakes, wars (caused by human greed no less) and the 30,000 people who will starve to death today? If god is able but not willing, he's malevolent you see?
That's herecy!! You say, you cannot question god's divine plans. You still haven't explained how that plan is divine? -It was written in the prophecy that because of man's (forget women and children who had little to no participation, without mentioning the millions of men who did not have anything to do with the rich's greed for money and power either) wicked ways god would destroy earth. Well, it was also written that Jesus would come back again to pick up his church; where is he? "Soon" You say, well, it's been over 2000 years, that doesn't sound like soon to me at all. Sounds more like he's not willing, thus making him a wicked evil god.
Smite me oh mighty smiter!!!! If I'm here next month, your god doesn't exist, because I challenged him to smite me and he didn't. If I do die a horrible death, you will say it was because I challenged god, but if I don't, your lips will be sealed and you won't even talk about it (I've been to Vino Nuevo, I've been to the sermons and only the stuff that happened the way the pastor wanted was mentioned, however, the prayers were aimed towards a lot of other stuff that was completely dismissed because it didn't happen and that wasn't mentioned, obviously!). And when I ask you, you will say, "god in his infinite mercy spared your life" and you will, as expected, fail to explain the reasons why, when I'm such a heretic and I questioned god's existence and not only that, I also challenged his genie powers!! And I'm still here, and I will probably survive to live 80 years or maybe more if I take care of myself.
Wake up and smell the roses, stop wasting time and effort on inexistent gods.
Thank you.
Thursday, December 1, 2011
Saturday, October 1, 2011
Have you seen the free booklets?
I have the September 2011 free booklet from Vino Nuevo and I just couldn't help myself!! I have to get it and read it so I can have an idea if the church has evolved or is still the same. Guess what... It's still the same! Their deluded ideas and convictions haven't changed and my best guess is that they're just as static as their favorite book The Bible.
I found a couple of interesting things in this little booklet that I'd like to address with a little bit of logic if I may. After all, thousands of american soldiers have given their lives for my freedom to speak my mind and that's why I'm here, enjoying that freedom and being grateful for it. So here it goes!
One of the first little stories in the booklet comes from the personal experience of Haydee Richards, and I emphasize personal because this something she's sharing because she claims to have lived it herself in this booklet, and also to emphasize that this experience is so personal and unique that she's only lived it once in her lifetime. I say this based on the interpretation of writing in the September 2011 booklet.
This little story claims that she was a troubled young woman without being specific as to what was the source of such troubles. We can guess all we want here of course.
She warms us up with a touching story, as it is a tradition of this church, by saying that she was the one of several who stayed after the church service because she wanted someone to pray for her unspecified need. Now, she doesn't mention which church is this one she went to when this happened, again, we can guess all we want on this one too.
She claims to have felt an overwhelming joy and a sweet love that was dumped onto her, lifting her up to a cloud of love. Now, up to this point I'm thinking "Was she high? Under the influence of something? Or were the problems she was going through so bad that she just wanted out and this was the best outlet she could find." But she goes on to say and affirm that god himself came down from the heights and sit down in front of her, look into her eyes and SAY HER NAME!! Wow!!! That is so freakkin' awesome isn't it?!! God almighty, came down from the heights and SAID HER NAME!! Now, let us take a look at a simple definition for Schizophrenia: A complex mental disorder that makes it difficult to tell the difference between real and unreal experiences, think logically, have normal emotional responses, behave normally in social situations. Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001925/.
In another paragraph, she insists that "The Son of God said her name!" Like if that couldn't be imagined or like if it was a unique experience to her only. So many people have claimed not only to see this god thing, but also wrote entire gospel-like books (see Conversations with God, an uncommon dialogue by Neale Donald Walsch, to mention just one example). She goes on to explaining in the very next paragraph that "[the] darkness of my lack of identity fled desperately when faced by that enormous reality, I was no longer a black dot in space, a voice in the wind or a shapeless face". If I ever have an experience like that I would seek medical and psychological help immediately!!! I'd be worried about my kids and family. Can you imagine what my children would be asking? "What's wrong dad? Why are you saying such weird things? Don't scare me daddy. I want my dad back!" Now, I'm am assuming here that she actually felt this presence; but there's also one of many alternatives: She didn't experience anything and made it all up to cover her true emotions of despair because of her guessed troubled youth (which is just my guess of course) and she wanted to "join the club" of deluded people in hopes of getting free psychological help to overcome her emotional troubles. But again, I'm just guessing here because the booklet doesn't really say what she was going through.
Guess or reality, this kind of experience is not unique. I saw a video of another guy who claims he WENT TO HELL AND CAME BACK !! (see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzpevdkLxJQ&feature=related) And there are too many other horrifyingly fictional stories like this one, such as other stories like the one Hayee Richards is depicting in the booklet.
She closes with the same burning desire to "feel the presence of God", which is strange to me because I used to go to Vino Nuevo myself. I attended this church for five years, I never felt anything I didn't want to feel. Everything I ever felt was completely fabricated by my head because I "wanted to feel the presence of God" and I did; not literally, but emotionally, pushed only by the sheer pressure of the pastors and leaders from that church who say that if you don't feel the presence of God you're doing something wrong and I didn't want to be in group of the "sinners" or "wrong-doers" which is why I had to fake it; like this god thing could never be at fault for just running away from my life and demonstrating me how careless he/she/it can be towards humanity. I only wanted to belong to something and I wanted to find meaning to this life, which I will come to later; but going back to my original thought, when I went to Vino Nuevo (which back then was considered by many as a cult) I noticed (as previously stated) that the leaders and pastors were constantly "touched by God" and this lady here, is married to one of the pastors of this church, Chris Richards, son of the main character of the Vino Nuevo comedy Victor Richards, which should tell us that she must be "touched by God" constantly, so if she is actually "touched by God" (in her imagination of course), why does she have this burning desire? And if she is not, what is she still doing in that church? If I wasn't getting what I want in a store, I'd go to another store until I find what I'm looking for, especially if I have a "burning desire" to have it !!
In the end it all comes down to our need to belong. This touching story of exclusively personal experiences (either fictional, promoted by artificial drugs or mild to severe symptoms of schizophrenia) that cannot be confirmed, denied or tested due to the "person" factor, can only indicate us how deluded and gullible we are as a human race and how deep our need to belong is.
Of course there is an explanation for this behavior. Since our species was in its infancy, it was imperative that we stayed together as a "clan" or group of individuals for survival we had to hunt in groups and collect in groups. So we had to invent mechanisms to keep ourselves from getting hurt by other members of the clan as well as other predatory species. This urge and deep need for others has been with us for probably hundreds of years and it's not going to go away; we need each other to survive. What I see quite shameful here is that we create all this complex story of a god just to stick together and survive. Can't we just stick together and help and love one another without the need for a supreme being watching every move we make? If this is the case, then we're not really that advanced yet. Hopefully in some other thousands of year we will finally come to our senses and see that sticking together is as simple and complicated as sticking together!!
Then there's another article in the same booklet by Haydee's husband, Chris Richards.
This other one is about (drum roll....) sticking together!! Except this one is sticking together as a couple with your obviously heterosexual partner in life (homosexuality is also a demon in this church which is expelled by prayer, fast and lots of happy singing and dancing no less). And of course he goes on to saying that we are responsible for our actions; but wait, didn't his wife just said that due to the experience she had, which had nothing to do with her psyche (in her view of things) God is the one responsible for saving us? Well, probably not. Now it turns out that we have to take responsibility too, DAMN!! We were doing so well (LOL!!).
Anyway, he goes on to say that if you stick together with god first, and of course, "without him [god] we transform into capricious and self-centered beings". And I have a big problem with this one! I haven't been in that church for years, I used to be an agnostic (which is basically a "don't know, don't care" attitude) and now I am an outspoken atheist; and throughout this time I have not once become capricious or self-centered!! Remember the need to stick together for survival? Well I still have that need, except that now I understand that I don't need a capricious, unfair, egotistical, self-centered, genocidal maniac watching every move I make to stick together with other people, to help, to love, to work, to find purpose and to belong.
I am living proof that the statement above is false!! I am godless right now and I feel full of joy, full of life and full of purpose. I feel that I belong, I feel that I understand my position in society and I know that I can give purpose to my life and that I am equal with all my fellow human beings. I accept and feel comfortable around gay people, physically disabled people and everybody else alike. I no longer feel pity for disabled people, I don't think black people are cursed by god, I don't think gay people should be made straight or be banned from being happily married to their partners and I sure as hell (oh yeah! I said hell) I don't feel superior or inferior to anybody.
Moving on... in another paragraph below I read "we need to learn to listen to God instead of the opinions offered by people". This, I have a problem with too. In all the years I went to that church, not once did god talk to me personally. And there could be plenty of arguments here from believers and creationists alike, but everybody keeps talking about their "personal" experience and it is recognized and accepted as truth by their group and I don't see how my personal experience could be dismissed only because it doesn't match theirs. Or like Pat Condell would say "yes, I want a piece of the pie too."
The only thing I learned was to believe, to go to church, to "get involved" (which means take your own time and money to go spread around the delusion of a god to other people who are just as gullible as you are, insist that they convert into moronic zombies that only listen and obey without ever questioning anything the church leadership says or does), in one word, to belong to the church. Which is not near what I was shopping for in that store. I was shopping for comfort, self-respect, self-motivation, and for crying out loud a cure for the acute depression I was going through !! I now know that I was looking in the wrong place. If I went to a therapist I would have had better results. See what happens when you shop for clothes in a grocery store?
So, on a positive note here for Chris: BRAVO!! I second that motion against those mexican machos who exercise an abusive, controlling and unfair oppression. I KNOW!! I was the victim in a reversed-role relationship like that WHILE ATTENDING CHURCH!! My ex-wife even went to the extremes of giving me a bloody nose twice besides the regular psychologically abusive and controlling every-day behaviors and words; which actually made my psychological problems worse, but that's besides the point.
Chris goes on to saying that we're supposed to run our marriages according to god's "wise precepts". And this is the part where I find a lot of conflict. These supposed "wise precepts" dictate that we should discriminate against gays (1 Timothy 1:10 "them that defile themselves with mankind") , we should stone our children to death if they don't obey (see Deuteronomy 21:18-21) and to embrace and support slavery (see Leviticus 25:44-46). What kind of wisdom is this? Are these the family precepts I want to teach my family? Sure as hell not!! It's not only immoral, it's illegal !!!! So no thanks Chris, I'm fine and well without god's "wise precepts."
And in the last paragraphs it says: "We all need God". No we don't! There are a few of us here in El Paso, but there are plenty more out there in the US and around the world who live very happy and fulfilling lives without the god you're referring to. Actually, I used to feel watched and guilty at every turn when I was a believer, because I never knew when I was going to sin; and when I felt I had sinned, I felt guilty and in need of forgiveness. Just like the slaves did, if they did something the master didn't approve or commanded, they would have to face harsh consequences at the hand of their master; so again, no thanks Chris, I don't need a master to tell good from bad, and to tell moral from immoral.
Feel free to share this with people who don't know yet about this church. E-mail me if you want to know more, I got plenty of stories.
Happyraver1958
I found a couple of interesting things in this little booklet that I'd like to address with a little bit of logic if I may. After all, thousands of american soldiers have given their lives for my freedom to speak my mind and that's why I'm here, enjoying that freedom and being grateful for it. So here it goes!
One of the first little stories in the booklet comes from the personal experience of Haydee Richards, and I emphasize personal because this something she's sharing because she claims to have lived it herself in this booklet, and also to emphasize that this experience is so personal and unique that she's only lived it once in her lifetime. I say this based on the interpretation of writing in the September 2011 booklet.
This little story claims that she was a troubled young woman without being specific as to what was the source of such troubles. We can guess all we want here of course.
She warms us up with a touching story, as it is a tradition of this church, by saying that she was the one of several who stayed after the church service because she wanted someone to pray for her unspecified need. Now, she doesn't mention which church is this one she went to when this happened, again, we can guess all we want on this one too.
She claims to have felt an overwhelming joy and a sweet love that was dumped onto her, lifting her up to a cloud of love. Now, up to this point I'm thinking "Was she high? Under the influence of something? Or were the problems she was going through so bad that she just wanted out and this was the best outlet she could find." But she goes on to say and affirm that god himself came down from the heights and sit down in front of her, look into her eyes and SAY HER NAME!! Wow!!! That is so freakkin' awesome isn't it?!! God almighty, came down from the heights and SAID HER NAME!! Now, let us take a look at a simple definition for Schizophrenia: A complex mental disorder that makes it difficult to tell the difference between real and unreal experiences, think logically, have normal emotional responses, behave normally in social situations. Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001925/.
In another paragraph, she insists that "The Son of God said her name!" Like if that couldn't be imagined or like if it was a unique experience to her only. So many people have claimed not only to see this god thing, but also wrote entire gospel-like books (see Conversations with God, an uncommon dialogue by Neale Donald Walsch, to mention just one example). She goes on to explaining in the very next paragraph that "[the] darkness of my lack of identity fled desperately when faced by that enormous reality, I was no longer a black dot in space, a voice in the wind or a shapeless face". If I ever have an experience like that I would seek medical and psychological help immediately!!! I'd be worried about my kids and family. Can you imagine what my children would be asking? "What's wrong dad? Why are you saying such weird things? Don't scare me daddy. I want my dad back!" Now, I'm am assuming here that she actually felt this presence; but there's also one of many alternatives: She didn't experience anything and made it all up to cover her true emotions of despair because of her guessed troubled youth (which is just my guess of course) and she wanted to "join the club" of deluded people in hopes of getting free psychological help to overcome her emotional troubles. But again, I'm just guessing here because the booklet doesn't really say what she was going through.
Guess or reality, this kind of experience is not unique. I saw a video of another guy who claims he WENT TO HELL AND CAME BACK !! (see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzpevdkLxJQ&feature=related) And there are too many other horrifyingly fictional stories like this one, such as other stories like the one Hayee Richards is depicting in the booklet.
She closes with the same burning desire to "feel the presence of God", which is strange to me because I used to go to Vino Nuevo myself. I attended this church for five years, I never felt anything I didn't want to feel. Everything I ever felt was completely fabricated by my head because I "wanted to feel the presence of God" and I did; not literally, but emotionally, pushed only by the sheer pressure of the pastors and leaders from that church who say that if you don't feel the presence of God you're doing something wrong and I didn't want to be in group of the "sinners" or "wrong-doers" which is why I had to fake it; like this god thing could never be at fault for just running away from my life and demonstrating me how careless he/she/it can be towards humanity. I only wanted to belong to something and I wanted to find meaning to this life, which I will come to later; but going back to my original thought, when I went to Vino Nuevo (which back then was considered by many as a cult) I noticed (as previously stated) that the leaders and pastors were constantly "touched by God" and this lady here, is married to one of the pastors of this church, Chris Richards, son of the main character of the Vino Nuevo comedy Victor Richards, which should tell us that she must be "touched by God" constantly, so if she is actually "touched by God" (in her imagination of course), why does she have this burning desire? And if she is not, what is she still doing in that church? If I wasn't getting what I want in a store, I'd go to another store until I find what I'm looking for, especially if I have a "burning desire" to have it !!
In the end it all comes down to our need to belong. This touching story of exclusively personal experiences (either fictional, promoted by artificial drugs or mild to severe symptoms of schizophrenia) that cannot be confirmed, denied or tested due to the "person" factor, can only indicate us how deluded and gullible we are as a human race and how deep our need to belong is.
Of course there is an explanation for this behavior. Since our species was in its infancy, it was imperative that we stayed together as a "clan" or group of individuals for survival we had to hunt in groups and collect in groups. So we had to invent mechanisms to keep ourselves from getting hurt by other members of the clan as well as other predatory species. This urge and deep need for others has been with us for probably hundreds of years and it's not going to go away; we need each other to survive. What I see quite shameful here is that we create all this complex story of a god just to stick together and survive. Can't we just stick together and help and love one another without the need for a supreme being watching every move we make? If this is the case, then we're not really that advanced yet. Hopefully in some other thousands of year we will finally come to our senses and see that sticking together is as simple and complicated as sticking together!!
Then there's another article in the same booklet by Haydee's husband, Chris Richards.
This other one is about (drum roll....) sticking together!! Except this one is sticking together as a couple with your obviously heterosexual partner in life (homosexuality is also a demon in this church which is expelled by prayer, fast and lots of happy singing and dancing no less). And of course he goes on to saying that we are responsible for our actions; but wait, didn't his wife just said that due to the experience she had, which had nothing to do with her psyche (in her view of things) God is the one responsible for saving us? Well, probably not. Now it turns out that we have to take responsibility too, DAMN!! We were doing so well (LOL!!).
Anyway, he goes on to say that if you stick together with god first, and of course, "without him [god] we transform into capricious and self-centered beings". And I have a big problem with this one! I haven't been in that church for years, I used to be an agnostic (which is basically a "don't know, don't care" attitude) and now I am an outspoken atheist; and throughout this time I have not once become capricious or self-centered!! Remember the need to stick together for survival? Well I still have that need, except that now I understand that I don't need a capricious, unfair, egotistical, self-centered, genocidal maniac watching every move I make to stick together with other people, to help, to love, to work, to find purpose and to belong.
I am living proof that the statement above is false!! I am godless right now and I feel full of joy, full of life and full of purpose. I feel that I belong, I feel that I understand my position in society and I know that I can give purpose to my life and that I am equal with all my fellow human beings. I accept and feel comfortable around gay people, physically disabled people and everybody else alike. I no longer feel pity for disabled people, I don't think black people are cursed by god, I don't think gay people should be made straight or be banned from being happily married to their partners and I sure as hell (oh yeah! I said hell) I don't feel superior or inferior to anybody.
Moving on... in another paragraph below I read "we need to learn to listen to God instead of the opinions offered by people". This, I have a problem with too. In all the years I went to that church, not once did god talk to me personally. And there could be plenty of arguments here from believers and creationists alike, but everybody keeps talking about their "personal" experience and it is recognized and accepted as truth by their group and I don't see how my personal experience could be dismissed only because it doesn't match theirs. Or like Pat Condell would say "yes, I want a piece of the pie too."
The only thing I learned was to believe, to go to church, to "get involved" (which means take your own time and money to go spread around the delusion of a god to other people who are just as gullible as you are, insist that they convert into moronic zombies that only listen and obey without ever questioning anything the church leadership says or does), in one word, to belong to the church. Which is not near what I was shopping for in that store. I was shopping for comfort, self-respect, self-motivation, and for crying out loud a cure for the acute depression I was going through !! I now know that I was looking in the wrong place. If I went to a therapist I would have had better results. See what happens when you shop for clothes in a grocery store?
So, on a positive note here for Chris: BRAVO!! I second that motion against those mexican machos who exercise an abusive, controlling and unfair oppression. I KNOW!! I was the victim in a reversed-role relationship like that WHILE ATTENDING CHURCH!! My ex-wife even went to the extremes of giving me a bloody nose twice besides the regular psychologically abusive and controlling every-day behaviors and words; which actually made my psychological problems worse, but that's besides the point.
Chris goes on to saying that we're supposed to run our marriages according to god's "wise precepts". And this is the part where I find a lot of conflict. These supposed "wise precepts" dictate that we should discriminate against gays (1 Timothy 1:10 "them that defile themselves with mankind") , we should stone our children to death if they don't obey (see Deuteronomy 21:18-21) and to embrace and support slavery (see Leviticus 25:44-46). What kind of wisdom is this? Are these the family precepts I want to teach my family? Sure as hell not!! It's not only immoral, it's illegal !!!! So no thanks Chris, I'm fine and well without god's "wise precepts."
And in the last paragraphs it says: "We all need God". No we don't! There are a few of us here in El Paso, but there are plenty more out there in the US and around the world who live very happy and fulfilling lives without the god you're referring to. Actually, I used to feel watched and guilty at every turn when I was a believer, because I never knew when I was going to sin; and when I felt I had sinned, I felt guilty and in need of forgiveness. Just like the slaves did, if they did something the master didn't approve or commanded, they would have to face harsh consequences at the hand of their master; so again, no thanks Chris, I don't need a master to tell good from bad, and to tell moral from immoral.
Feel free to share this with people who don't know yet about this church. E-mail me if you want to know more, I got plenty of stories.
Happyraver1958
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